This holiday season, how will you start difficult conversations with your children? Psychotherapist Rodney Long, LISW talks about how to discuss school shootings, sex ed, and other important topics. When kids feel free to discuss challenges as they occur, it becomes easier each time. As usual, Rodney and Nick spend most of this episode of Ascend Health Show laughing at each other.
NICK:
Welcome to the Ascend Health Show. I’m Nick Angeles. I’m your host and a nurse anesthetist. I’m one of the owners of Ascend Health Center. And I’m here today with Rodney Long, licensed independent social worker.
RODNEY:
Good to see you.
NICK:
Yeah, good to see you, too.
RODNEY:
Glad to be back.
NICK:
And for all the shows I’m doing today, I’m prominently displaying this award, which we only won because there was a smoothie being made, and it was really entertaining for people.
RODNEY:
So you’re the man. Just in case.
NICK:
You viewers were not aware that you’re watching quality television. You are, except for this episode with Rodney, because neither of us can really keep it professional.
RODNEY:
That’s true.
NICK:
You are being picked up by by like the health channels on spectrum or something, right?
NICK:
Or at least get something on QVC.
RODNEY:
Yeah. So, yeah.
NICK:
Sell stuff like Colon Broom. Have you ever heard of Colon Broom.
RODNEY:
By the way? I have not.
NICK:
So it’s just Metamucil, but it’s 20 times the price and they have some really slick advertising.
NICK:
Man, I got to get on one of those deals.
RODNEY:
Yeah, definitely.
NICK:
And it’s a little bit of our topic today of that sometimes or maybe we’ll do that for the next show. Yeah, we’ll do that for the next show about how slick it can be. Sometimes when you see some health options and it turns out to be not that slick at all and not that worth it because today’s topic is almost the opposite. Where how do you talk about things that aren’t slick at all when you have to have like an important conversation with your child, but you don’t want it to be so awkward, Even more awkward than us opening the show, talking about coal and broom because, you know, if you have a very awkward conversation with your child, like, okay, so there’s these birds and there’s these bees and they buzz and they chirp. All this is terrible. Well, there’s probably not going to be a follow up.
RODNEY:
Yeah, Yeah.
NICK:
And like, the whole point of a conversation with your kids is like, this is the start. And then if something comes up, why don’t you talk to me about it?
NICK:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that’s the tough part about kids, man, is that number one, they’re just I the weird in their own ways. So often even the even the kids who are, you know, bright and forward thinking and know what they’re, you know, kind of know what’s coming. It’s just tough to have those conversations for both the parents and the kids. So I always tell parents, you know, be proactive. If we wait for our kids to talk about these things, they we probably won’t get to it because they want to avoid it. You know, just like a lot of parents probably do. So. Right. I tell parents, be proactive about it. You know, give space to explore these kind of things, no matter what the topic is, whether it’s something tough or something something tough, like what goes on in the news sometimes or something. Maybe maybe not as tough, but a little difficult to talk about, like the birds and the bees.
RODNEY:
Right?
NICK:
So so maybe, like, start out small. Like if there’s some sort of news story or some sort of event, you can start with that. How does this make you feel? And then kind of go from there?
NICK:
Yeah, yeah. What I tell most parents is that when something like this happens, let’s take one of the school shootings, for example. When something like that happens, bring it up to your child, you know, ask what they know about it, what they’ve heard about it. Chances are they didn’t see it on the news like you or I did. They probably saw it on social media. And so talk to them about what they what they’ve seen, what they’ve heard. Let them know, first of all, ask, you know, and encourage them to be open about it. It’s okay to feel different things at different times. You know, I hate to say it, but something like a school shooting has become a political issue, you know, And so they’re going to have kids at school or friends who they hear say things about guns and this and that and about it being a political issue. But the important part is let them know two things can exist at one time. You know, you can be sad and angry and you might see some kids who seem apathetic or indifferent. And and the important part is to not not take that away from them, you know, explore that with them, talk to them about it, see where they’re going with it.
NICK:
I mean, isn’t that the whole theme of the movie Inside Out, where she’s growing up all of a sudden? Like the happy and the sad memories are blending and she’s like, my brain is melting, but it’s just like, nope, you’re old enough now that something can be happy and sad.
RODNEY:
That’s right.
NICK:
I love that movie. Yeah, that’s good. I watched that movie with one of my best friends. Yeah.
RODNEY:
Yeah.
NICK:
And now all of our viewers are like, You know what? I think I will watch Inside Out. And so the rest of this episode.
NICK:
Yeah, it’s good stuff. A lot of those are.
RODNEY:
Yeah, I mean, but.
NICK:
That was a the main idea when that school shooting happened in Texas, we talked and that was a while ago. So that’s just how our schedules are of like, this is something that’s big. This is different in a lot of ways. Yeah. How can we talk to children and even adults in some cases about this in a way that’s honest and respectful but also doesn’t make a kid version? For example, you know, fourth grade health class, I learned about white blood cells and how they help the body. And then I am in graduate school in advanced pathophysiology class. I’m like, That wasn’t right at all. This totally has different ligands and different receptor sites and it’s like, well, no, just a more advanced version of the story of how those little white blood cells were helping clear out infections. Yeah.
NICK:
Yeah. No, I mean, I think you hit the nail on the head. There with kind of with adults. I’m not so much concerned about how we have the conversation. I’m more concerned about what we hear with kids. I want parents to be proactive and I want them to be authentic in that with with adults. I’m concerned that they’re going to get misinformation. You know, social media is notorious for that. You know, whether you’re I don’t care what you watch or listen to, you’re going to get different versions of the same story. Right. And so I think with kids, we want to be authentic and create space for them to explore and feel with adults. It’s not that we don’t want that. It’s just we’re we don’t have the same support sometimes that our children get. Right.
NICK:
So so you’re almost saying part of this is to realize, okay, some people who believe a lot of same things, that I do also have really stupid ideas and I need to face that.
RODNEY:
Yeah.
NICK:
Maybe. And I think honestly, a lot of Republicans discover this with everything that’s happened in the last four, six, eight years with Donald Trump. Okay? Many of these ideas are shared and some of these are really dumb. And it’s similar to what you said about having two emotions. I can take what I agree with and run with it with something, but also realize like, nope, this is too far. Or maybe I do believe this, but my nuanced view of it is and sometimes we just realize that we’re wrong. Like, oh, a less nuanced view of my belief shows that I’m a terrible person. So that’s also.
RODNEY:
Possible. Sure. Sorry.
NICK:
I’m expanding our.
RODNEY:
Topic.
NICK:
No, that’s okay. Yeah. No, but. But you’re right. You know, I think it kind of cuts both ways because I think that there’s there’s some things we could look at and we could say, I think it’s lazy if we just expect Facebook to provide our news. You know, that is most of us, you know, that will happen. But we have to, I think, be more more proactive and kind of how we see these things. Otherwise, we’re just kind of passive consumers of kind of what we’re being told. And I think we need to take a more nuanced approach sometimes and how we view these things and talk about these things. But certainly I think you can be wrong. I think we all end up in echo chambers, you know, of kind of what we say, and it’s kind of being that confirmation bias that we we need. So I think it’s important that we do look out, you know, at kind of our blind spots and see what we might be missing.
NICK:
So it sounds like when it’s just for our own use, like maybe we don’t need to spend as much time on the news. Like if I get the correct perspective of the Ukraine war, who am I going to call about it? Yeah, Putin, Biden, Zelensky. What does it matter? But if I’m going to talk about something to my child, like let me get the correct angles from several angles. And that way because obviously there’s no point in teaching. Well, I shouldn’t say there’s no point, but if you’re trying to teach your youngster what to think, like they’ll go to high school, college, and then they’ll make up their own decisions. But if you teach them how to think, then even if you’re not always in agreement, at least they have like, a verified, valuable way to discern truth from lie, deception from falsehood, like all of that. And that’s obviously what the goal is as a parent.
NICK:
Yeah, yeah. That’s always my my point of focus for parents is like, I’m less concerned about teaching your kid what to think and more concerned about teaching them how to think. And that’s really the crux of it, because truthfully, like school shootings, for example, that shouldn’t even be a political issue. You know what I mean? Like and when I think about this, what I think is if there’s a school shooting, we should do anything and everything we can to stop it. Bar none that shouldn’t. To me, that means if we took every gun in America, then we’d just. For the sake of the children, then so be it. But that becomes a political statement today. And so what I talk to people about parents, children, is it’s okay to have your own thoughts. Number one, don’t just look for other people to decide what you think about this. But it’s okay to disagree as well. If you’re going to watch Fox News, watch MSNBC. If you’re an MSNBC guy, watch Fox News. You know, and I’m not saying you got to watch C-SPAN, but there’s a lot of times where I think we get the news out of context. You know, and and I think going to the source of things and doing a little bit more reading helps.
RODNEY:
So it sounds.
NICK:
Like what we need for our kids is almost like a safe space. Like, hey, we’re going to talk about something that’s weird or hard. So while we’re talking about this, I don’t want you to feel like you just say certain things or behave in certain ways. It’s okay to say things like, oh, I wish, you know, the kids had killed the shooter. Just things that usually as children you’re taught like, don’t think about that because I mean, there are things where there’s times when my step kids say something weird and I want to laugh and encourage it, but I’m like, I’m a pretty weird adult. Like, I really shouldn’t encourage this behavior. But there’s other times was like, no, Like we need the fullness of expression because this is a complex issue and you almost have to have them repeat back to you. Like, what did we decide? What did we say? Because in these more complex and more awkward conversations, again, you don’t want misunderstanding to occur. You don’t want them to say something because they think it’s. The right answer when this isn’t like right or wrong discussions. These are how do these make us feel and what are we going to do about these feelings?
NICK:
Yeah, that’s exactly it. A lot of times with my own daughter, I would, you know, she might ask me something about something complex and I might know about it, but I don’t want her to just take my opinion. So if she had asked me about Ukraine, let’s say, for example, I’d tell her to look it up and tell me what she learned. You know, that’s one of the ways that I encourage exploration, you know, or tell parents to explore exploration exploration, because then they get a chance to think for themselves when they read about Russia or. Right. Or Ukraine, and they’re going to say, well, this happened here and this happened there, and they’re going to ask me something and I’m going to say, well, what do you think about that? You know, and we’ll talk about that. And the point isn’t necessarily to come up with for me to tell her something, for me to tell somebody something. The point is for them to to learn what they think and how they got to that conclusion.
RODNEY:
Right.
NICK:
Because I was thinking, too, when because one of these related topics, especially during the holidays, when it always seems that there are more deaths, injuries, bad news for whatever reason, I was like, when’s the last time I got a text or a phone call about something bad? No, I just read it on a friend’s Facebook feed and that’s how I found out. So even as adults, I think this sort of conversation with kids kind of teaches us to go back to, okay, if there’s a difficult conversation, how can I have this face to face or at least through a phone call or some more direct, meaningful way than just, you know, a blast to everyone I know about what’s going on?
RODNEY:
Yeah. Yeah.
NICK:
If you ever really want to get me going, get me started on social media, because that’s that is so detrimental to our mental health today. It really creates an impersonal space for us all. You know, we’ve kind of gotten to the point where we when you learn about the death of somebody, you learn about it on Facebook. You know, nobody’s calling you. You know, people don’t often or not as as much as they used to, I think kind of send Christmas cards, you know, or a lot of that has become impersonal. I think Facebook or whatever social media medium you use creates the illusion of conversation. And so I think in some ways, some people have done some really cool stuff about creating community in online ways. I dislike it though, in a lot of ways because I think it gives the illusion of community instead of real connection.
RODNEY:
Yeah.
NICK:
And even because right now we’re even though I already removed the Santa and Mrs. Claus accordion players from this table, which I do regret, they would have been a really nice addition to this conversation. But moving on, a lot of times that’s the issue, is that there’s this illusion of community between family members that only see each other 2 or 3 times a year, and that’s why they’re going to fight about politics, because it’s almost a face to face Facebook trolling. Yeah. So, I mean, I guess one way that we could discuss this is how do we make our real relationships more real? How do we resist the urge to just kind of put everything out there like it’s some sort of online diary and whoever will like or comment can engage with us? How do we take the time to and part of maybe we just have to take more things out of our lives because it takes a lot less time to like air your stuff out and see who likes it as opposed to like, Hey, Rodney, here’s.
RODNEY:
What’s going on.
NICK:
Yeah. Yeah. I think I think social media has kind of created this vacuum of narcissism in a lot of ways that we kind of feel like we need to share certain things with everybody. And we don’t. Quite frankly, I think now we share more than ever, you know, even this, how do we connect with kind of our family members, kind of in-person? This in-person trolling, I think, is how you call it, which is pretty accurate. I think it’s kind of a matter of being authentic, you know, and freeing yourself from the judgment that comes along with that. You know, it’s kind of like I heard a story the other day and I heard some some woman saying that she was she was 30 years old at the time. And for the first 29 years of her life, she was affiliated with she was a Democrat and her Republican friends didn’t have much say about it, but she she became a Republican at 30. And all of her Democratic friends hated her, which is whichever side you’re on is not the point. But I think the tolerance for that is what we really need. Like you and I should be able to disagree about whatever we view and still be friends and still think differently. But we’ve kind of gotten rid of that and we’ve kind of said, hey, if you don’t think what I think or how I think, then then you’re a bad person. And and I think sometimes that’s true. People can be bad people. But I think we have to create space for like, hey, we’re different and that’s okay.
NICK:
Yeah. And like I said earlier, it’s also true and this is more awkward that there’s a lot of people that believe almost exact same things that I do, and they’re bad people. Sure, beliefs don’t shape. It’s how you act on things, not what you retweet. That makes.
RODNEY:
It different. Absolutely.
NICK:
So and I think what you’re saying is it’s going back to our original point that you can choose not to have conversation. You can choose not to engage, and you will have a false unity, a false peace, whether it’s with your children or with your relatives at Christmas. And it is true that there are some situations where that’s all you can have and there you go. That’s all you can hope for. But I think we’re saying that it’s important to try to. Not even if it’s contentious to try for real relationship, because most of my patients, they’ve told me even over the last few weeks that, wow, like Thanksgiving was hard or this happened or I went through this tough time. But their mental health has improved. It doesn’t it sounds like like I need to give them their ketamine treatment or their psychiatric drug or their therapy and put them in this echo chamber where nothing happens and then they’ll get better. But the opposite, where in some cases they had to take care of an ailing father. And that experience, although it was difficult, it was the stress that our brains need, the stress of like, I need to do something and accomplish something, because otherwise we’re just in the basement playing Call of Duty, trying to get that same, you know, need to accomplish something.
NICK:
No, that’s I tell everybody that I work with as a as a client that that closeness happens in the difficult conversations. You know, too often I think I meet parents who are who don’t want to say certain things to their children because they’re afraid that they’re going to upset them or, you know, Sister doesn’t want to say something to a brother. But when we avoid those conversations, we miss the opportunity to connect with people in real, authentic ways. And so whether that’s, you know, I dislike you because you voted for this person or I felt like you should have handled this differently when you were at my house, you know, that kind of thing. Avoiding those conversations doesn’t give us the opportunity to really connect, you know? And I think that’s what we’re missing in a lot of ways, is that instead of just being honest with each other, I think we’ve gotten so used to just kind of the white lie of like, Nope, it’s fine that we avoid kind of the real connection that happens when we create when we bring our authentic self, right?
RODNEY:
And a lot of.
NICK:
Times when that true connection isn’t what keeps a family together, then it is. It does become twisted and strange where it’s like, Well, I’ll pay for my kid’s apartment and that way they’ll still be in relationship with me. It’s like, that’s not really a relationship. I was trying really hard not to make some terrible joke about like, well, no one else is going to put food out for your kids. So even if they’re upset with you, they’re going to come back home. Obviously, that’s not that’s not always true. But I think that’s what a parent needs to think of, like, okay, it’s really messed up for my adult child to have a relationship with me because of financial reasons or like it needs to be a true connection. And part of that, you know, it is a cultural thing. Like in in Greek culture, it’s like, well, yeah, they did stab me, but their family, like, of course we’re having them over. Like, what are you talking about? Well, American culture is more of like, Oh, you know what? They did not support me. They’re out of my life. Yeah. So sometimes it’s a nice little balance between those two extremes.
RODNEY:
No.
NICK:
Yeah, I think you see it. You see it in black culture as well. You know, parents and children, you don’t disrespect a parent in black culture, you know, that’s just something that doesn’t happen. And so a lot of times it might be something that people got to do like this, you know, before they come back together. But this is going to happen, you know, whereas I think in a lot of maybe white families, you know, that doesn’t happen as much. I think where in black families you’re going to talk about talk it out, it’s going to be how you feel, how you want to feel, But we’re going to talk about it, you know, And so I think those kind of things create certain dynamics that need to happen, not always for the good, you know, But every culture has kind of certain things that both are positives and negatives. But I think it kind of brings things to a head for conversations that need to happen.
RODNEY:
Sometimes I think.
NICK:
It means we just need to start some sort of therapy fight club.
RODNEY:
Just get it out. Because we’ve talked many.
NICK:
Times about like the need for men in counseling and how the way we’re wired is so different. Yeah, yeah. And sometimes it is just like we need to hash this out or it’s not going to happen.
NICK:
That’s it, man. Yeah, I think so many people are afraid of of difficult conversations, you know, that that people don’t like that awkwardness of like, they’re going to be upset with me or they’re not going to like what I got to say. And at the end of the day, that can be so detrimental to your own mental health that I think that’s who I’m responsible for. I mean, I like you a lot, you know? But if you and I have a difficult encounter, I’m going to speak on it. So I maintain my my safety and my my boundaries and what I need for me in a respectful way, you know. And so I think when we don’t do that, we end up in this space that just fills us with resentment and anger. And and so I think having the opportunity sometimes people I’ll be honest with you, a lot of my clients, sometimes it’s just about giving them that space to explore those feelings that they just.
RODNEY:
Pushed down so often. And a lot of times.
NICK:
Too, like unless you resolve something because I’ve heard it well, like, let’s say I forgive someone, doesn’t that mean they’re off the hook? And does that mean I need to continue a relationship with them? And I’ve always said, Well, if you don’t forgive, if you don’t like, find a clean. Okay, you did something terrible. I’m releasing you from it. It’s not mine to judge or avenge. Then you’ll always be in relationship with them because they’ll just be hanging around your neck. And so you’ll be forced to be in relationship. Like sometimes you forgive and you let go and you’re over it. Then you’re actually free to no longer be hurt by them, to no longer be in any sort of relationship.
NICK:
Yeah, a lot of times we let people have power over us. You know, we there’s times where I have people that I talk to and they’re holding on to something for years. And I and I tell them, you know, that person is probably not thinking about. You know, but you’re still harboring this, you know, And, you know, Freud would say that’s that’s why you’re in here. You know, that’s why you’re in here talking about this because you’ve held on to it for so long. And the longer we hold on to it, the more sick we are about it.
NICK:
Yeah, like your childhood, for example. Because no offense to your profession, I say this too often when I’m talking to therapists. It must be really rude. But. But like, childhood is like a really small amount of your whole lifetime. But you could make a career talking about people’s childhood and how their parents wronged them and all the terrible things that happened back before they had bills to pay. Yeah. And so I think sometimes, again, it sounds a little mean, but it is like that was a long time ago and a lot of things happened, but a lot of things also happened in my 20s and 30s. So I need to realize that, yeah, you know, bad things happened and I have to deal with them and get over them and move on.
RODNEY:
Yeah, yeah.
NICK:
I think, you know, I think it depends on your, your framework. You know, I tend to be pretty what we call psychoanalytic in my, in my framework. And so, you know, I’m one of the guys that would say, hey, a lot of the unresolved stuff from your childhood probably still weighs you down unconsciously. You know, you don’t even realize it. And so those kind of things, I always work with people on resolving those issues because if we peel back the onion, you know, we we the reason that you maybe are struggling to form relationships in your 20s might be because of something that happened when you were ten, you know, kind of thing. And so trying to work to resolve that stuff I think goes a long way. But but there’s a lot of people, I think, who get some people are always looking for answers and sometimes there’s not a nice, neat answer. You know, sometimes we’re just some people just have difficult lives, you know, and need space and support to kind of figure that out.
NICK:
So you’re saying that because it’s such a small, finite time of your life in childhood, like, yeah, let’s talk about those issues, let’s discuss them and then we’ll move on. So yeah, that makes sense.
NICK:
Yeah, yeah. Sometimes a lot of times with my clients, you know, I, you know, I’ll spend a good bit of time trying to resolve whatever happened, you know, if, if, if I have a young girl in my office and she’s having young 19, 20, you know, and she’s having trouble kind of dating or whatever, you know, we might spend a lot of time exploring kind of what her relationship with her dad was like, what her what her relationship with her brothers was like, what male influences she had, you know, those kind of things. Sometimes that takes a few sessions, sometimes it takes longer. But but I do think there’s a you have to have a combination of kind of what’s going on currently that you can resolve and what happened in the past.
RODNEY:
Yeah, that.
NICK:
Was a really good segue. Way back to Authentic Connection, because you’re right, like everyone else seems to be dating, I can’t quite do it. Some of that does depend on Have you been taught, have you seen modeled how to talk about difficult things, how to resolve conflict, how to have a connection deeper than whatever you can get from the other person or whatever they’re giving to you. And I realize sometimes that’s a trauma response. Even things like borderline personality, it’s just often a trained way to respond when bad things have happened to you.
NICK:
But yeah, yeah, so much of that is what we learn, you know, what we see. And, and so I think that’s where sometimes you guys step in because, you know, I always tell people some people need this much counseling and this much medication, right? Some people need this much medication and this much counseling. And and so it’s about finding that balance for you.
RODNEY:
Yeah.
NICK:
With a goal, I feel always being like, okay, how can we how can you get better from talking more and taking fewer substances for sure? Sure, absolutely. Well, because of your unique approach and obviously I always enjoy talking to you. And I should say too, that everything that Ronnie said is authentic. Like whenever we email each other, it’s always like, Hey, how are you doing? And I can tell it’s not like, How are you doing? Okay, now we get to the email. It’s like a literal like, What’s up? I’m not going to be your Facebook friend and like, something. I just want to know what you’re up to so we can talk about it. So you’re right. And it’s a and it actually like stops me in my tracks because I’m often I don’t even do that. Like, how are you? I’m just like, here’s the reason I’m sending my email. All right.
RODNEY:
Sure.
NICK:
No, I get it. Yeah, we’re all moving so fast, you know? Yeah, it’s important to try and slow down.
NICK:
So how can people contact you these days if they’re interested in therapy? Realize that you’re really fascinating to listen to and have some really great ideas the way I think you do. So what’s what’s the step?
NICK:
Yeah, you can find me at Rodney Long junior.com that’s my website. I’m easy to find. If you Google my name, you’ll see my psychology profile come up.
RODNEY:
So pretty easy to find.
NICK:
And for me, we’re at ascend health center.com we do the Spravato ketamine TMS as long as as well as therapy and psychiatry. But I think a lot of what we’re getting at today is you can do the latest and greatest of therapies. You can take the best meds that there are. You can talk to your therapist every single week for the rest of your life, but until you can make authentic human connections, that’s only going to go so far. And really, it’s it’s an economic decision. If you if if you want to put it that way, if that’s the only way they’ll inspire you to think of it as the economics. I can either make have hard conversations that maybe I’ll even lose some relationships over it, but the ones that remain will be true. Or I can. Continue to live this way where everything is a little bit superficial, a little bit more comfortable, and it’s going to take, honestly, a lot more therapy and a lot more meds to live in a way that I can be comfortable in my own skin.
NICK:
Yeah, you’re going to have a much higher quality of life if you have three good people in your life that you can talk to versus 1200 Facebook friends, you.
RODNEY:
Know, and it still.
NICK:
Is a choice. I’m not saying this as a false choice of like, you got to do this or you’re a terrible person. Like I’ve had times where it’s like, you know what, I need 3 or 4 superficial friends to play basketball with twice a week. Absolutely. That’s what I’m going to do for right now.
RODNEY:
Yeah, I tell people sometimes that’s okay. You know, I get people in my office sometimes that they want to. They want a deeper relationship with someone. They want to have a girlfriend or a boyfriend or get married, you know? And I say sometimes it’s okay to just date around, you know, you don’t have to plan to marry everybody you meet, you know, have some fun, go on some dates, see what things are like out there, you know, put your authentic self out there and have some fun. You know, Don’t let the idea of not getting married tomorrow deter you from having fun today, right?
NICK:
Absolutely. So, yeah, well, this was great. Well, we better end this or I’m going to make some more jokes and then end the facade of me being a serious professional. I’ll be over. Same for you for the sake of your own.
RODNEY:
That’s all.
NICK:
Right. That went out the window years ago. Yeah, I did.
RODNEY:
With our.
NICK:
Last episode about the.
RODNEY:
Avocado. Oh, that’s.
NICK:
Yeah, we mentioned, like, avocado.
RODNEY:
Toast, I think, like 20 times. Yeah, that’s.
RODNEY:
Right. I forgot about that.
NICK:
Actually nominated that for one of these too.
RODNEY:
That’s right. All right.
NICK:
Well, I think our timer just did something weird, so we’re probably out of time anyways. Sounds good, but thanks for joining us all on the Ascend Health Show. It’s been a pleasure.
RODNEY:
Yeah.
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